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	<title>Comments on: The Root Of Religion?</title>
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		<title>By: alcove6409</title>
		<link>http://www.sachikospace.com/english/2009/10/the-root-of-religion/#comment-1520</link>
		<dc:creator>alcove6409</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 09:52:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sachikospace.com/english/?p=263#comment-1520</guid>
		<description>This is a special day in life, to see this much great discussion in one place.  Sachiko and others have given this a lot of thought, getting to this point.  And there is a light and airy quality to it all, which I feel contrasts much to the way I&#039;ve felt, as I&#039;ve tried to write on various topics leading to this episode.

I think something related to &quot;religion&quot; might indeed be hard-wired into living human cellular structure (usually one would think of the brain, but I&#039;ve found some science stuff that suggests things more general).  There seem to be special areas of the brain, and special physiological processes more generally, that are engaged when living beings undergo the subjective experience of contact with the occult, paranormal, or even vivid dreams of a &quot;religious&quot; nature.  A modest mundane starting point for looking at this would be to wire people up to polygraphs and record their &quot;activities&quot; while they sleep (perchance to dream?).  People have done this, and have worked on far more ambitious investigations, and have even enrolled some ultra-skeptics that would actually (perhaps cynically) build careers as paranormalists in the process.  There is an unpleasant possibility that certain corporations, religions, and government entities may have also circulated some disinformation in this area.  But the evidence persists, however much in disagreement the various scientific (or pseudo-scientific) interpretations might be, that there is very real physico-chemical and electromagnetic &quot;stuff&quot; behind humanity&#039;s tendency to reach for the unknowable.  There is also evidence that this feature is not simply an anomaly, or fly-in-the-ointment artifact, that pops up here and there to trouble proper academic scientists and tidy housekeepers.  Rather, it&#039;s like a basic feature that might have power to influence behaviors of entire populations, and it thereby demands respect and serious compassionate study.

I think it would be inaccurate to call humanity&#039;s natural reach for the heavens and immortality simply a &quot;religious&quot; tendency.  &quot;Religions&quot;, &quot;beliefs&quot;, &quot;faiths&quot;, &quot;cults&quot;, and various secular “followings” might be outgrowths of reactions to the basic physiology, but do not necessarily promote much constructive understanding of the physiological psychology itself.  And, as for the very real concern about the fear of death and its sociological consequences, there has been, and continues to be, a very real individual and collective need to seek improvements in our “constructive understanding”.  With the rather chaotic heap of intellectual resources now at our disposal, churned out from a history chewed up with religion- and finance-associated strife, we seem to need a new and strong dose of fresh natural inspiration.  Sachiko seems to be helping us look for that in life.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is a special day in life, to see this much great discussion in one place.  Sachiko and others have given this a lot of thought, getting to this point.  And there is a light and airy quality to it all, which I feel contrasts much to the way I&#8217;ve felt, as I&#8217;ve tried to write on various topics leading to this episode.</p>
<p>I think something related to &#8220;religion&#8221; might indeed be hard-wired into living human cellular structure (usually one would think of the brain, but I&#8217;ve found some science stuff that suggests things more general).  There seem to be special areas of the brain, and special physiological processes more generally, that are engaged when living beings undergo the subjective experience of contact with the occult, paranormal, or even vivid dreams of a &#8220;religious&#8221; nature.  A modest mundane starting point for looking at this would be to wire people up to polygraphs and record their &#8220;activities&#8221; while they sleep (perchance to dream?).  People have done this, and have worked on far more ambitious investigations, and have even enrolled some ultra-skeptics that would actually (perhaps cynically) build careers as paranormalists in the process.  There is an unpleasant possibility that certain corporations, religions, and government entities may have also circulated some disinformation in this area.  But the evidence persists, however much in disagreement the various scientific (or pseudo-scientific) interpretations might be, that there is very real physico-chemical and electromagnetic &#8220;stuff&#8221; behind humanity&#8217;s tendency to reach for the unknowable.  There is also evidence that this feature is not simply an anomaly, or fly-in-the-ointment artifact, that pops up here and there to trouble proper academic scientists and tidy housekeepers.  Rather, it&#8217;s like a basic feature that might have power to influence behaviors of entire populations, and it thereby demands respect and serious compassionate study.</p>
<p>I think it would be inaccurate to call humanity&#8217;s natural reach for the heavens and immortality simply a &#8220;religious&#8221; tendency.  &#8220;Religions&#8221;, &#8220;beliefs&#8221;, &#8220;faiths&#8221;, &#8220;cults&#8221;, and various secular “followings” might be outgrowths of reactions to the basic physiology, but do not necessarily promote much constructive understanding of the physiological psychology itself.  And, as for the very real concern about the fear of death and its sociological consequences, there has been, and continues to be, a very real individual and collective need to seek improvements in our “constructive understanding”.  With the rather chaotic heap of intellectual resources now at our disposal, churned out from a history chewed up with religion- and finance-associated strife, we seem to need a new and strong dose of fresh natural inspiration.  Sachiko seems to be helping us look for that in life.</p>
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		<title>By: jr</title>
		<link>http://www.sachikospace.com/english/2009/10/the-root-of-religion/#comment-1519</link>
		<dc:creator>jr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Nov 2009 20:10:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sachikospace.com/english/?p=263#comment-1519</guid>
		<description>Firefly, Sachiko.

Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel.
-- Samuel Johnson.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Firefly, Sachiko.</p>
<p>Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel.<br />
&#8211; Samuel Johnson.</p>
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		<title>By: Sachiko</title>
		<link>http://www.sachikospace.com/english/2009/10/the-root-of-religion/#comment-1518</link>
		<dc:creator>Sachiko</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Nov 2009 12:29:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sachikospace.com/english/?p=263#comment-1518</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&#039;#comment-1517&#039; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;@Firefly&lt;/a&gt; - I think you are still kind of missing the point. Yes, we can find whatever justification to do whatever crazy thing we want on a personal level, but it takes religion to allow people to do this &lt;em&gt;en masse&lt;/em&gt;. I agree that throwing patriotism into the mix can make things far worse, but patriotism alone still does not have the power of religion to move vast groups of people to acts of utter insanity. Oh, and I think the way I use the term religion is probably more like the way you use &lt;em&gt;organised&lt;/em&gt; religion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="#comment-1517" rel="nofollow">@Firefly</a> &#8211; I think you are still kind of missing the point. Yes, we can find whatever justification to do whatever crazy thing we want on a personal level, but it takes religion to allow people to do this <em>en masse</em>. I agree that throwing patriotism into the mix can make things far worse, but patriotism alone still does not have the power of religion to move vast groups of people to acts of utter insanity. Oh, and I think the way I use the term religion is probably more like the way you use <em>organised</em> religion.</p>
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		<title>By: Firefly</title>
		<link>http://www.sachikospace.com/english/2009/10/the-root-of-religion/#comment-1517</link>
		<dc:creator>Firefly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Nov 2009 07:03:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sachikospace.com/english/?p=263#comment-1517</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&#039;#comment-1516&#039; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;@Sachiko&lt;/a&gt; - I&#039;m not sure about this.  I think we find whatever self-justification we can when we do something we know is wrong or questionable.  Yes, religion is one of the most frequently abused sources of self-justification, but so is &quot;patriotism.&quot;  When someone chooses to combine patriotism AND religion as means of self-justification (hello, George W. Bush!), you&#039;ve really got a mess.
I find it most peculiar to be in a position of defending &quot;religion&quot; here, since I have a lot of quarrels and gripes with religious fanatics of all stripes.  I think we need to distinguish between &quot;religion&quot; and &quot;religiosity.&quot;  I think anyone who&#039;s been victimized by a professional con-man would argue that the moral impulse in not innate in all humans.  Or, just read &quot;Felix Krull, Confidence Man&quot; by Thomas Mann, if you can find the time.
The point I&#039;m trying to make is that, given the right circumstances, we are all susceptible to those temptations which appeal directly to whatever weaknesses we have.  That&#039;s the point at the heart of so much of Joseph Conrad&#039;s work, and I tend to agree with that point of view.  &quot;What is it that men cannot be made to believe!&quot; as Thomas Jefferson observed.  I think the fault lies not so much in the belief as in the perversion of the belief by hypocrites advancing their own agenda.  My gripe is not with &quot;religion&quot; per se, but rather with &quot;organized religion,&quot; which frequently promotes evil under the guise of good.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="#comment-1516" rel="nofollow">@Sachiko</a> &#8211; I&#8217;m not sure about this.  I think we find whatever self-justification we can when we do something we know is wrong or questionable.  Yes, religion is one of the most frequently abused sources of self-justification, but so is &#8220;patriotism.&#8221;  When someone chooses to combine patriotism AND religion as means of self-justification (hello, George W. Bush!), you&#8217;ve really got a mess.<br />
I find it most peculiar to be in a position of defending &#8220;religion&#8221; here, since I have a lot of quarrels and gripes with religious fanatics of all stripes.  I think we need to distinguish between &#8220;religion&#8221; and &#8220;religiosity.&#8221;  I think anyone who&#8217;s been victimized by a professional con-man would argue that the moral impulse in not innate in all humans.  Or, just read &#8220;Felix Krull, Confidence Man&#8221; by Thomas Mann, if you can find the time.<br />
The point I&#8217;m trying to make is that, given the right circumstances, we are all susceptible to those temptations which appeal directly to whatever weaknesses we have.  That&#8217;s the point at the heart of so much of Joseph Conrad&#8217;s work, and I tend to agree with that point of view.  &#8220;What is it that men cannot be made to believe!&#8221; as Thomas Jefferson observed.  I think the fault lies not so much in the belief as in the perversion of the belief by hypocrites advancing their own agenda.  My gripe is not with &#8220;religion&#8221; per se, but rather with &#8220;organized religion,&#8221; which frequently promotes evil under the guise of good.</p>
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		<title>By: Sachiko</title>
		<link>http://www.sachikospace.com/english/2009/10/the-root-of-religion/#comment-1516</link>
		<dc:creator>Sachiko</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Nov 2009 00:18:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sachikospace.com/english/?p=263#comment-1516</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;a href=&#039;#comment-1512&#039; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Originally Posted By Mark Crawford&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br/&gt;There are a couple of cautionary points that need to be made, however.  The first  comes from the very evolutionary perspective that you have articulated. If we are &quot;hard-wired&quot; biologically for religion or religious-like belief systems, then removing God in the name of Enlightenment will simply create a vacuum for secular ideology--the very thing that we have witnessed in the worst excesses of the French Revolution, communism, fascism and Nazism. If that is the case, the danger always exists that we may end up being no better off.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I don&#039;t think we are hard-wired for religion &lt;em&gt;per se&lt;/em&gt; - I just think it serves a purpose that our instincts drive us toward, but which is now far better served by humanism and science. Indeed (as my article says), using religion to satisfy these instincts is now counterproductive, even downright dangerous. Communism, Nazism etc. are basically just new religions, and very anti-humanist and anti-reason.

&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;a href=&#039;#comment-1514&#039; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Originally Posted By Firefly&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br/&gt;I think we&#039;d all like to believe, along with Christopher Hitchins in &quot;God Is Not Great,&quot; that the moral impulse is innately human.  Then someone like Charles Manson or Adolph Hitler or Josef Stalin comes along to remind us that it&#039;s not.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I don&#039;t think that proves the moral impulse isn&#039;t innately human at all. As my article says, we have competing instincts that can sometimes led us astray, especially when given moral justification by something like religion (I think these people saw themselves as Gods, and created new religions).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p><a href="#comment-1512" rel="nofollow">Originally Posted By Mark Crawford</a><br />There are a couple of cautionary points that need to be made, however.  The first  comes from the very evolutionary perspective that you have articulated. If we are &#8220;hard-wired&#8221; biologically for religion or religious-like belief systems, then removing God in the name of Enlightenment will simply create a vacuum for secular ideology&#8211;the very thing that we have witnessed in the worst excesses of the French Revolution, communism, fascism and Nazism. If that is the case, the danger always exists that we may end up being no better off.</p></blockquote>
<p>I don&#8217;t think we are hard-wired for religion <em>per se</em> &#8211; I just think it serves a purpose that our instincts drive us toward, but which is now far better served by humanism and science. Indeed (as my article says), using religion to satisfy these instincts is now counterproductive, even downright dangerous. Communism, Nazism etc. are basically just new religions, and very anti-humanist and anti-reason.</p>
<blockquote><p><a href="#comment-1514" rel="nofollow">Originally Posted By Firefly</a><br />I think we&#8217;d all like to believe, along with Christopher Hitchins in &#8220;God Is Not Great,&#8221; that the moral impulse is innately human.  Then someone like Charles Manson or Adolph Hitler or Josef Stalin comes along to remind us that it&#8217;s not.</p></blockquote>
<p>I don&#8217;t think that proves the moral impulse isn&#8217;t innately human at all. As my article says, we have competing instincts that can sometimes led us astray, especially when given moral justification by something like religion (I think these people saw themselves as Gods, and created new religions).</p>
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		<title>By: Firefly</title>
		<link>http://www.sachikospace.com/english/2009/10/the-root-of-religion/#comment-1514</link>
		<dc:creator>Firefly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Oct 2009 22:25:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sachikospace.com/english/?p=263#comment-1514</guid>
		<description>Religion: from the Latin &quot;ligio,&quot; meaning to link, and &quot;re-&quot; meaning backward.
Thus &quot;religion&quot; is a method of linking backward to our ancestors through a culture of common myths, which are designed to explain the inexplicable.
In that sense I have no problem with anyone else&#039;s &quot;religion,&quot; since it becomes apparent, at least to me, that there is no such thing as &quot;the one true religion.&quot;  I think that all myths contain a certain amount of symbolic truth about the great mysteries of life and death, which are congruent given the context of a particular culture.  Conflict arises when we view another culture as &quot;strange,&quot; and &quot;the other,&quot; and can therefore demonize them as &quot;Satan&quot; (quite literally, &quot;the other&quot; in ancient Semetish languages).
Otherwise, we&#039;re dealing with the question of whether the moral impulse to &quot;good&quot; is innate or not.  I think we&#039;d all like to believe, along with Christopher Hitchins in &quot;God Is Not Great,&quot; that the moral impulse is innately human.  Then someone like Charles Manson or Adolph Hitler or Josef Stalin comes along to remind us that it&#039;s not.  My point is that each individual case is just that: an individual case, and we have to be responsible for the choices that we make and their consequences.  I&#039;m not sure that&#039;s always a function of &quot;morality,&quot; although we like to make it so after the fact as a form of self-justification.
I think it&#039;s much more pertinent to examine how the &quot;righteous&quot; become &quot;self-righteous&quot; and wind up twisting the prevailing &quot;values&quot; to their own ends.  After all, demagogues have been with us at least from the time of Alcibiades, a good 3,000 years or more.
It&#039;s like Piggy said in &quot;Lord of the Flies&quot;: &quot;I don&#039;t believe in the Beast.  I think the Beast is us.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Religion: from the Latin &#8220;ligio,&#8221; meaning to link, and &#8220;re-&#8221; meaning backward.<br />
Thus &#8220;religion&#8221; is a method of linking backward to our ancestors through a culture of common myths, which are designed to explain the inexplicable.<br />
In that sense I have no problem with anyone else&#8217;s &#8220;religion,&#8221; since it becomes apparent, at least to me, that there is no such thing as &#8220;the one true religion.&#8221;  I think that all myths contain a certain amount of symbolic truth about the great mysteries of life and death, which are congruent given the context of a particular culture.  Conflict arises when we view another culture as &#8220;strange,&#8221; and &#8220;the other,&#8221; and can therefore demonize them as &#8220;Satan&#8221; (quite literally, &#8220;the other&#8221; in ancient Semetish languages).<br />
Otherwise, we&#8217;re dealing with the question of whether the moral impulse to &#8220;good&#8221; is innate or not.  I think we&#8217;d all like to believe, along with Christopher Hitchins in &#8220;God Is Not Great,&#8221; that the moral impulse is innately human.  Then someone like Charles Manson or Adolph Hitler or Josef Stalin comes along to remind us that it&#8217;s not.  My point is that each individual case is just that: an individual case, and we have to be responsible for the choices that we make and their consequences.  I&#8217;m not sure that&#8217;s always a function of &#8220;morality,&#8221; although we like to make it so after the fact as a form of self-justification.<br />
I think it&#8217;s much more pertinent to examine how the &#8220;righteous&#8221; become &#8220;self-righteous&#8221; and wind up twisting the prevailing &#8220;values&#8221; to their own ends.  After all, demagogues have been with us at least from the time of Alcibiades, a good 3,000 years or more.<br />
It&#8217;s like Piggy said in &#8220;Lord of the Flies&#8221;: &#8220;I don&#8217;t believe in the Beast.  I think the Beast is us.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: jr</title>
		<link>http://www.sachikospace.com/english/2009/10/the-root-of-religion/#comment-1513</link>
		<dc:creator>jr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Oct 2009 21:25:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sachikospace.com/english/?p=263#comment-1513</guid>
		<description>Mark asks &quot;Might there not be a spiritual world beyond our senses..&quot;

not sure about the &#039;beyond our senses&#039; but from experience (mushrooms ;-)) I&#039;d say yes, all life on Earth (&quot;Gaia&quot; to some) is somehow connected spiritually.

my belief is that the established religions are exploiting this sense/feeling, explaining IMO our relative willingness to succumb to religious &quot;leadership&quot;.

that said I think your &quot;cautionary points&quot; are well made.

on a different note, perhaps we need a better word than &quot;atheist&quot;. why should we define our point of view in the terms defined by &#039;theists&#039;?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark asks &#8220;Might there not be a spiritual world beyond our senses..&#8221;</p>
<p>not sure about the &#8216;beyond our senses&#8217; but from experience (mushrooms <img src='http://www.sachikospace.com/english/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> ) I&#8217;d say yes, all life on Earth (&#8220;Gaia&#8221; to some) is somehow connected spiritually.</p>
<p>my belief is that the established religions are exploiting this sense/feeling, explaining IMO our relative willingness to succumb to religious &#8220;leadership&#8221;.</p>
<p>that said I think your &#8220;cautionary points&#8221; are well made.</p>
<p>on a different note, perhaps we need a better word than &#8220;atheist&#8221;. why should we define our point of view in the terms defined by &#8216;theists&#8217;?</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Crawford</title>
		<link>http://www.sachikospace.com/english/2009/10/the-root-of-religion/#comment-1512</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Crawford</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Oct 2009 17:56:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sachikospace.com/english/?p=263#comment-1512</guid>
		<description>Sachiko: You are indeed the thinking man&#039;s glamour model, and I have a link to you on my own blog!  

Karl Marx obviously put his finger on something. Religion has been an opiate and an obstacle to almost all liberation movements, one that has been harnessed (usually by dominant elites, sometimes by new movements), to mobilize support and resistance. Of course, Marx was too deterministic and reductionist in thinking of it purely in class terms. Edward De Bono, in his book The Happiness Purpose, proposes a humanistic alternative to traditional religion, which he says evolved over centuries in order to help the great majority of humankind to cope with the generally miserable conditions they had to endure.

There are a couple of cautionary points that need to be made, however.  The first  comes from the very evolutionary perspective that you have articulated. If we are &quot;hard-wired&quot; biologically for religion or religious-like belief systems, then removing God in the name of Enlightenment will simply create a vacuum for secular ideology--the very thing that we have witnessed in the worst excesses of the French Revolution, communism, fascism and Nazism. If that is the case, the danger always exists that we may end up being no better off.

Second, atheists should always be prepared to turn their skepticism on themselves. Might there not be a spiritual world beyond our senses, that nonetheless &quot;exists&quot;, perhaps a parallel universe? Are we always better off with the arid theories of academic philosophers than with moralities and ethics that have evolved through practice over centuries? Even if expulsion from the Garden of Eden is explained in psychoanalytic terms as expulsion from the womb, why not honour that truth with a &quot;story&quot;? Why not look for the truth that traditional pre-scientific stories and histories contain? And if atheism hardens into an absolute and intolerant &quot;belief&quot; system, doesn&#039;t it risk lapsing into self-contradiction?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sachiko: You are indeed the thinking man&#8217;s glamour model, and I have a link to you on my own blog!  </p>
<p>Karl Marx obviously put his finger on something. Religion has been an opiate and an obstacle to almost all liberation movements, one that has been harnessed (usually by dominant elites, sometimes by new movements), to mobilize support and resistance. Of course, Marx was too deterministic and reductionist in thinking of it purely in class terms. Edward De Bono, in his book The Happiness Purpose, proposes a humanistic alternative to traditional religion, which he says evolved over centuries in order to help the great majority of humankind to cope with the generally miserable conditions they had to endure.</p>
<p>There are a couple of cautionary points that need to be made, however.  The first  comes from the very evolutionary perspective that you have articulated. If we are &#8220;hard-wired&#8221; biologically for religion or religious-like belief systems, then removing God in the name of Enlightenment will simply create a vacuum for secular ideology&#8211;the very thing that we have witnessed in the worst excesses of the French Revolution, communism, fascism and Nazism. If that is the case, the danger always exists that we may end up being no better off.</p>
<p>Second, atheists should always be prepared to turn their skepticism on themselves. Might there not be a spiritual world beyond our senses, that nonetheless &#8220;exists&#8221;, perhaps a parallel universe? Are we always better off with the arid theories of academic philosophers than with moralities and ethics that have evolved through practice over centuries? Even if expulsion from the Garden of Eden is explained in psychoanalytic terms as expulsion from the womb, why not honour that truth with a &#8220;story&#8221;? Why not look for the truth that traditional pre-scientific stories and histories contain? And if atheism hardens into an absolute and intolerant &#8220;belief&#8221; system, doesn&#8217;t it risk lapsing into self-contradiction?</p>
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